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Welcome to the New Shape of Work podcast. I'm Kate Bravery, Mercer's Advisory and Insight Leader, and I can't believe that we are finally in December. I thought for this very last podcast of the year we would actually do things a little bit differently.
I had the pleasure recently to partnering with my colleague, Ilya Bonic, who leads the Career Practice in Mercer, and is our Global Head of Strategy, and Kai Anderson, who is our Regional Transformation Leader. And we came together to talk about a new book that Mercer has coming out called Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age.
I think we would all agree that we've seen phenomenal changes in our attitudes to work over this last year, And. So we wanted to pause and reflect on what do those changes mean as we face 2024? And we want to usher in an era of more engaging, more inspiring work, and one that frankly might be a little less exhausting.
I'm going to replay that link to live here for you to get a little taster of what we were talking about on that. And I look forward to reconvening our conversations via our podcast series in the new year. If you are celebrating the holidays, wishing you a wonderful break with friends and family. Again, I look forward to speaking to you in 2024. Enjoy.
Welcome everyone to Mercer Live. Today's event is titled Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age. This is such a timely topic for organizations. Skills are a top priority for HR and people managers, but in order for organizations to really embrace skills-based practices they need to adopt holistic changes to how they attract, recruit, reward, and empower, and engage with talent. Things from culture, to technology, to job mapping.
Well, today, I am joined by three global thought leaders and practicing experts to explore this growing skills gap and how leaders can better understand the skills that are needed across the entire organization. Kate, Ilia, and Kai, thank you for joining us today on Mercer Live.
It's great to be here.
I'd love to start with you, Kate, and ask each of you to maybe take a moment just to share with our audience what part of the world you're joining us from today, and your role and your area of focus.
Hi, Daniela, wonderful to be here. Really looking forward to the conversation I'm Kate Bravery. I'm presently based in Brighton in the UK, and I've really enjoyed the last couple of years partnering with my colleagues in order to write the book. My role at Mercer is looking after our research and advisory agenda.
Thank you. Ilya, over to you.
So Daniela, thanks for having us. I lead most of career business, and one of the executives at Mercer. I'm joining you from Greenwich, Connecticut. And my passion, if you like, is people and organization. I really like and enjoy the challenge of how to maximize organization performance. We get the right balance so that people get what they want as well.
Fantastic. Thank you. And Kai.
Daniela, I'm calling in from rainy Munich today, and well, it's November. And my role within Mercer is I'm responsible for Mercer's transformation services internationally, and that is human-centered transformation. So that is my passion, and a lot of that is what you will see in the book.
Fantastic. Well, thank you to each of you for taking the time to join us today. Well, let's get started, and if it's OK, I'd like to start off with you Kate, and encourage Kai and Ilya, for you to just jump in. I want to have a very natural dynamic fun conversation. But I'd really like to kick us off by asking, how can businesses weave sustainability and resilience into their business priorities as we start tackling this big topic?
Yeah. Well, I agree with you that this is a very timely conversation. One, it's happening at the end of the year where we're all doing business planning, but also it's happening at a time where we've got an unprecedented opportunity to think differently about how and where we work. The advent of generative AI I think is getting everyone excited, and as a corporate psychologist, I've been fascinated at how our attitudes towards work have been changing over the last couple of years.
And I think one thing we probably all agree on the call, is the last few years have really been marred by various crises that we've had to respond to, whether it's been the COVID pandemic, whether it's been wars, whether it's been grappling with the cost of living, or even new work models. And that's meant that a lot of our mental mindsets have been in a permacrisis way.
And what that means is we've atrophied our skill around more strategic and sustainable thinking. As we welcome 2024, I think it's a real opportunity to stop, take a good hard look at how we're operating day-today, and rethink some of our talent models. Because if I'm pretty honest, I think those talent models haven't served us well for the new world that's evolving.
On the one hand, we've had real challenges of we don't have enough talent coming into our businesses to meet our growth ambition, and then fast forward a year, and we've got significant numbers of reductions in force happening. We've also got a number of markets that don't have the full participation of their workforce, and at the same time, we've got massive skills mismatch.
And I think that just smacks to all of us that there's probably an opportunity to do this a little bit differently. And so in the book throughout all the chapters, we talk about sustainable people practices, we also hopefully do it in a fun way with lots of musical references. So if you hate music, you're going to hate the book.
But you specifically asked me, how can we move from the current climate of react and respond to more strategic and sustainable people practices? And for me, there's probably three that I would kick us off for the conversation today. One, we talk a lot about strategic workforce planning and how we can think in a more nuanced way about how we meet the demands of the future, because the way that we work today is changing as we bring in AI and automation.
But it's not just looking at those external shifts in demand, it's also looking about the demands we place on our people, because 82% still say that they're at risk of burnout this year. And so we've got to really look at the capacity that we have in our people when we think about sustainable people management.
Secondly, I'm really excited that generative AI is already helping us do some of that scenario planning so we can look in more nuanced ways about if we have a hiring freeze, or a budget cut, or the work that we want to operate in the future demands completely different skills, how can we model that out. With a world that's changing at such a rapid rate, that's really helping us be a lot more strategic in HR and in our executive teams.
And thirdly, I think we're seeing the adoption of more agile work practices which is really getting us excited. The book is full of lots of examples from some leading companies on how they're adopting more skills-powered organizations. We've got Infosys talking about their pay-for-skills philosophy, we've got Novartis on how an unbossed culture has made a difference, Standard Chartered on moving from sunset to sunrise roles. So lots of good examples of how you can think differently and think more sustainably.
But it's not just business sustainability, and people sustainability we talk about, we also talk about the imperative to weave in environmental sustainability. Kai, you were a great partner on that particular chapter, maybe you want to say a few words. What really resonated for you there?
Kate, when we look at this sustainability, ESG comes up, and obviously in our book, we concentrate very much on social sustainability for a good reason. Because when we look at HR, we talk about the human resource, it is a resource that is limited, it is a resource that is exhausted, and we need to treat that resource in a different manner, in a more sustainable manner.
So that is one of the key messages and I think we have some great examples. For example, [INAUDIBLE] which is doing a great job on sustainable people management. But apart from that, we also need to look into, well, the E and the G part of sustainability. And of course, we see that a lot of companies are moving towards sustainability, which is environmental sustainability first.
Now when we look at the root cause of sustainability, environmental sustainability, we will quickly come to a point where we find that we have a say, Do get. People want to be more sustainable, and in fact, we see in our Global Talent Trends that 99% of employees expect their employers to follow a, well, sustainable agenda.
So that is the kind of, A, the do is different. And when we dig into why it is so hard to follow up on sustainability agenda and deliver on environmental sustainability, we need to come to mindset and behavior, and that is so crucial.
And I think we have great examples for how it works to embed sustainability into the corporate culture, maybe even make it a corporate purpose. But then definitely weave it into corporate objectives, incentive systems, and so on. So that is I think great stuff for everybody to see that these examples are out there and we have ways to make it work.
Absolutely. Ilya, just before I pivot, I want to pick up on something that Kate mentioned, is there anything you wanted to just add on to what Kate and Kai had already shared or we're good to--
Sure. Just briefly, is there needs to be a balance between what the organization needs in terms [INAUDIBLE] and people, and the two go hand in hand. I think through COVID in particular, we saw that one of the things holding back organizations from the [INAUDIBLE] perspective was just having enough of the right people in the right place at the right time.
This organization mindset has shifted towards one where we realize that we can't [INAUDIBLE] our people and therefore we need to look at sustainability through that lens as well.
Absolutely. And actually I just wanted to share as well just for the audience and we'll pivot is, for the upcoming book that you've referenced Kate and also Kai, which is Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age.
I'm personally interested in jumping in Kate, now that you've mentioned these musical notations in there just to see what your genres are and how you connected this into the conversation, because I think it's going to certainly make for helping us remember the key takeaways as we go through the chapters. So thank you for that.
Well, I think you're going to find it quite eclectic when you do take a look at it, Daniela. You might look at it a little bit differently.
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That's fantastic, because I think one of the things you did say was we need to think differently, so it seems to be working really well there. Thinking of some of the things that you said at the beginning Kate, think differently, our attitude towards work, just the whole concept of rethinking. And Kai, you kind of built on that. One of the truths that really hit home was it doesn't pay to stay, and so it would be really fantastic to maybe hear from you Ilya, what's driving this phenomenon?
Sure, Daniela. So as leaders and HR professionals, as much as we like to say that, Pay is not the reason for employees leaving, I think over to the last few years actually, it is a key driver. Our research certainly shows as much. And the past few years I think have also shown for employees, particularly if they look at social media and the like, that actually, sometimes it is a greener pasture to change and look for alternative employment.
And in addressing this for organizations as we the perspective we take in the book that's, whenever you encounter a business problem, it's important just to step back and say, How are employees thinking about this? And how are they thinking about it now than they have been different [INAUDIBLE] past and how we address these challenges previously?
So from the perspective of it doesn't pay to say, actually, employees can get paid more and do get paid more by leaving their current job and joining another employer. So Mercer's compensation surveys will show somewhere between the range of 4 and 6% on average when someone shifts jobs in terms of the pay increase. Do that a few times over your career and you're earning maybe 20% plus more in income, and over a lifetime that adds up to a lot.
If you look at government statistics they show the same trend between stayers and leavers, in fact, more aggressive. And then for those jobs or those skills that are in particular premium, it's not uncommon for someone to leave for a base pay decrease of 15% to 20%. They get a bump in incentive, that's probably guaranteed for the first year. They get a sign on bonus, they might get long-term incentive.
And so very quickly, changing jobs can turn into 20% to 30% premium over the decision to stay. So that's quite substantial and one of the reasons we labeled that chapter, It Doesn't Pay to Stay. Importantly though, it's not just about pay, your pay is not about direct compensation only. As we have experienced over the last few years, there have been a number of new priorities that have come into play.
So for example, employees will trade-off compensation for things like lifestyle integration. They'll be thinking about what's next, the kind of skills that they're going to gain by staying with this employer, the extent to which they're valued.
Yes, they work hard, are they supported enough? Are they given the resources that they need to deliver? Are they respected for their contribution? So are they just told what to do or are they explained and provided the context of what their contribution is?
And then I think there's two other things. One is, no one really wants to be in a dead-end job. So as much as it'll pay, I think employees now will keep in experiences that will position them for the long-term for career sustainability.
And if now is not the right time, if now is too difficult to find another opportunity in the job market, or through the phenomenon of quietly quitting. I think we learned over the past few years that it's easy enough for an employee to dial back their effort and wait for better times.
[INAUDIBLE].
I think that's going to be a real concern this year, because just hearing the range of things we talked at the beginning, there's a lot that everyone's grappling with and being asked of, and I think job insecurity is rising really high at the moment. And we were pretty shocked when we looked at our own data because truly do we want to be reinforcing that actually switchers should earn more as opposed to recompensing our loyal stayers?
And so although we flagged that phenomenon, we do talk about how you can change that picture, and we talk a lot about-- in part it's down to two things. It's not always just base pay, it is that perceptions of pay equity. And have the privilege of doing our Global Talent Trends study every year, and for the first time, equity in pay is in the top five. In fact, after job security, it's the second reason why people are staying.
I think with pay transparency laws, pay equity legislation, and just cost of living crisis, or the fact you can ask ChatGPT what you should be paid. I think everybody's much more attuned to, How much money am I being paid relative to my peers and what does that actually mean in terms of take-home pay?
But that equity perception definitely goes beyond pay. When we think about some of the strikes that we have, it hasn't just been about that pay. It's been about, who has flexible working who doesn't have flexible working? It's been about, how AI is being used and is that eroding future wealth potential? We saw that in the US with the writers strike. So I think we do need to think broadly on this topic, and we've definitely seen some attitudes change from executives on how we deliver on that fuller proposition as the labor market has tightened.
So yeah, a few things there to chat about, but we also have some strategies that I think can really make a difference and make people feel engaged and inspired to stay for the long haul, and ways in which the companies can speed up the way people are moving around organization which overcome some of the challenges.
Yeah. You hit on a couple of quick points there Kate that I wanted to pick up. One you mentioned, ChatGPT, or more broadly generative AI, and also both of you and Ilya talked about just some of the different labor trends that we're seeing right now and what that means, and how we need to address that. So what I wanted to pivot back to is, when we think about generative AI and those labor trends, how will they converge to put a premium on an agile organization?
Kai, do you want to kick off and I can add?
Happy to. So let us really start with the one big labor trend that is demographics, and demographics don't lie. And although at a different pace, the workforce is shrinking in the Western world and also in China, the biggest labor market, so economic downturns as we have right now may dampen this effect, but labor shortages are here to stay. So that is the kind of new normal, and we've seen that after the pandemic.
For the first time ever, it was like a hot summer that is an indicator for global warming. We've seen the vacancies in restaurants and all around. So that is a given, and probably when we look at organizations and executives what they are doing, not only in these economic, well, challenging phases, they are freezing headcount. So they're not necessarily laying off people, but they also increase their investments into AI and automation, which is more than 40% of executives that are doing exactly that right now.
And here's probably the answer to this huge challenge that we have to make use of the potential that we have within automation and generative AI, let us not forget technological progress has always meant to decrease our workload in the long run. And that is exactly what will happen with generative AI, which is a blessing when we see how much we are working and we see that the workforce is shrinking.
Yeah. And I would add to that. We've got to look on the one hand, these labor changes that are happening, whether it's workforce participation, whether it's aging workforce, and as we start to look forward, there's a premium on productivity, and I think that's where the AI conversation juxtaposes with it. Mercer's own economic modeling suggests that generative AI is a potential to add 551 million to the global economy between 2025 and 2035, and deliver 14% gains in productivity per worker.
And that's really interesting because if you do the maths, that equates to about a month saving a year. And one of the things that fascinates us is, Well, what do we do with that saving? Is that an opportunity for us to rethink work-life balance? You heard from Kai earlier that people are feeling disengaged, depleted, we've got a finite resource with our energy.
Or is that maybe to reskill so that we can actually have more time in the jobs of today to learn the skills of tomorrow? And I think that's a really interesting conversation for us to be having today before we just flow those productivity gains to the bottomline and return them to shareholders.
But GenAI is getting us all excited and we see huge productivity gains in the workforce at the moment, whether it's using it as a copilot to help us do our work quicker and faster, or whether it's allowing people who previously wouldn't have been able to do that job to enter into the workforce. I think it's incredibly exciting to have a look at those dynamics together.
OK. To your point, if I can add. It is a big question, What do we do if those productivity gains? And our employees are saying, Well, if we create more time, more space, can we use that to our own advantage and not return everything to the organization? Critical question because from a competitive perspective, all organizations will be working to apply AI to enhance the efficiency of their processes. Not all of them will be using AI to innovate and to create.
And think it's going to turn into a two-speed world from that perspective. Those organizations that are applying for both efficiency purposes and to create [INAUDIBLE] are going to be more competitive and more sustainable. We know with AI that AI itself cannot create, we need a human in the picture.
So I do think there's a lot of advantage in thinking long-term about that productivity gain and thinking about how we invest that time into employee learning, education, challenge and working with AI to focus more on those creative and innovative aspects of work.
That productivity gain is also really alluring as well, because I think we have to be careful as we have that pursuit for faster and more efficient working, do we forget to have a look at if there are biases or if this is having adverse impact on any particular population. And that's one of the things I'm really worried about. I'm always fascinated how humans can adapt, but I also know that we rely a lot on the tacit knowledge we've built up over the years.
And as we see more of that kind of labor arbitrage to the machine we stop learning some of those kind of baseline skills. And I think that also needs a rethink if we're going to make sure that the younger generation coming in are not held back because of the opportunities technologies can afford.
It's definitely a great point Kate. And actually on the note that you're mentioning about the younger generation, and both you Kai and Ilya have also talked about this focus on compensation, and what individuals want, and how do we retain talent, attract talent, it would be fantastic to maybe get your perspective on how can organizations better understand what people really want.
Kate, you alluded to some past surveys, I believe you also tapped into the Global Talent Trends and some of the results from 2023 on that as well, and that we want a lifestyle contract really. We want compensation, but we want a lot more. And how can organizations really better understand that? Because understanding that is what's going to enable us to retain that talent and to truly grow with that talent as opposed to always having a transient labor force.
Absolutely. And I think Ilya shared some of those findings from our 2023 study around people really being prepared to make a trade-off. And we actually ask the question, What would you forgo a pay rise for this year? And many people said it was more time off, better benefits, and actually opportunity in many parts of the world, to engage in sustainability pursuits.
So we see that importance of purpose and contributing not just to profit, but to a wider array of things, and we see that in 2024. And I'm actually just looking through the 2024 study at the moment, and there's some fascinating things in here because I think this is the year that people have really sat back and some of the seeds of discontent and change about people's attitudes to work have really hit the data.
I mean, one of the headlines Daniela, is, I think one in 4 said, I actually don't want to work at all. And when we start to really look in at millennials, one in two says, I'm not up for the way of working that I saw my parents work. So something really is amiss and our attitudes of work have absolutely shifted. And you're right, no longer is it that loyalty contract of yesteryear, which was the equation between workers and employees.
No longer is it the engagement contract, which has dominated over the last decade. Today it's about not just engagement in work, but thriving in all aspects of your work. And when we look particularly at the Gen Y and the Gen Z data, they want their work to fit around their lifestyle, and they're asking for different ways to contribute, to have side gigs, to share work. And I think we really saw some bright spots of that straight after the pandemic.
But if I look at some of the data coming out from HR and executives, some of those attitudes have been pulled back. And Kai, you and I co-authored a chapter on The New Rhythm of Work and how that's changed. And I would say, over the last three years, it's changed dramatically, and it's pivoting once again. Maybe you want to add some comments on that.
Well, Yeah. I mean, especially when we look at what's happening right now, we've used the rhythm metaphor for a reason because we all have now our own rhythm, and that has been fostered very much with the pandemic of course when we were all forced to work virtual.
And now I tend to say, The ghost is out of the bottle right. And what we've seen in our surveys throughout the past years is that the preference for working flexible is amongst the top three preferences around the world.
So one way to get back to a corporate rhythm may be to call people back into the offices, and we are seeing that with many organizations. But that leaves you with another dilemma, that is, the preference of people to work more autonomously. And if you now ask me or ask us, What can we do about it? Then probably one thing is to say, We need to find a balance of individual needs and organizational needs, which is easier said than done.
But then it's also to consider other dimensions of flexible work other than when we work and where we work. Which is also like, Who is working? We're talking about job sharing there's an opportunity to be more flexible and more autonomous. We were talking about, What we work? So that is also, of course, affected by we've been talking about generative AI and new tools that we have that make our working lives easier.
So when we look at the lifestyles and the why we work, to adjust more to the kind of lifestyle and well, the situation that people are in. So there is answers to that, and we are pretty sure that organizations can find their rhythm and get back into sync when we look at these things.
So Kai, can I just add quickly on to that maybe just ask you a second part to this question? Which is, based on what you've just shared, how can you build a culture in that case that really transcends the structures, and the walls, and the places at the heart of this change, especially when you're talking about bringing people back into the workforce, people wanting to work independently or flexibly from wherever?
Well, we can probably bring everything back to culture, and if you ask for how can we make that work? It is the first and the strongest instrument that we have is dialogue and feedback. So when we get into a notion that we have a real dialogue and that is not we keep telling people what to do, but we are listening to people. And you've asked for, How do we get to know people's preferences? By listening.
So employee listening is a really great exercise in getting into a dialogue, having managers, leaders, that are in a real dialogue with people is something that is fostering a culture of, let's say, belonging and appreciation. And that is something that we've come across. And if there's things that are maybe new in the context of leadership and culture, it is one thing that comes up, which is empathy.
And empathy has been fostered very much through the pandemic by really getting to each other's shoes, which is like, I understand you. I see you, I see the individual, and I'm being empathetic about what is bothering you.
So that was very much the ask of the pandemic, and we're well-advised to hold on to that kind of notion to foster empathy and make that an organizational reflex because it is fostering a culture of inclusiveness and belonging.
That makes a lot of sense, it's really insightful. Ilya or Kate, anything that you wanted to add on to that as well?
Yeah. I think some [INAUDIBLE] say it's important also for a manager or leader mindset to recognize that one of the things holding back growth and sustainable growth is actually having enough of the right talent. And so that means that as long as organizations are designed in a way that is strict and structured, not flexible or agile enough, we'll always have challenges.
And a theme that we discuss through the book is the concept of skills-based organization and much more mobility in an organization than ever before is one of the ways to move forward. So part of the culture, I would say, is your organization needs to have a bias towards a [INAUDIBLE] bias strategy, I think that's become obvious.
We talked about [INAUDIBLE] actually it's very difficult to afford to buy all of the talent at a premium, so you need to build. And I think it's important to know employees, provide learning opportunities so that they can gain the skills that they need for the future. And that means they need to know, so they need to be transparent around the skills that are going to be required future organizational success.
And the premium, and also those skills that are perhaps decaying an organization, it means taking advantage of technology. So jump onto AI and take full advantage of the potential that has to offer. And then, of course, it also requires a further change in leadership mindset so that we're not so protective of our own resources, but we're willing to free up our own resources to let them move to parts of the organization where they'll be more productive, more effective, more impactful, and that doesn't come naturally.
Appreciate that Ilya. There were so many great takeaways there to really just capture down, so I hope everyone in our audience was able to take some good notes as you were just adding that comment. I appreciate we've been running through so many vast topics over the past 30 minutes and we're coming close to time, but I do have one question that I really wanted to ask the three of you.
When I think about the book and I'm very excited myself to read it, what chapters and themes do you think resonate most today? And would appreciate if can maybe start with you Ilya, and ask Kate, and then Kai to jump in, and share with us in the audience so we know where we should start.
Sure. My favorite chapter is one we call The Play Unchained. Most of the book goes deep into employee perspective, this one takes an employer perspective on supply and demand, and a reminder that there's so much to learn by thinking outside of our natural silos. And so in this case, it informs HR that there's so much to be learned from the lessons and the science of managing the physical supply chain.
Through COVID in particular, we experienced such challenges in that space. But there's a lot of learnings that translate directly into talent pipeline management, which is the key for the future. And then it also shows that it needs to be a real balance between what employers need and what employees want.
[INAUDIBLE].
Daniela, I'm happy to go next. I'm going to be greedy, I probably have to. I love the first chapter, which is Goodbye Employees Hello Contributors, because I think the mindset of what people want from their leader and their work has fundamentally changed.
And I can't go past amplified intelligence, because I do think AI is ushering a really new and exciting world where we can think differently about how we move our talent around our organizations, and how we help people have fulfilling careers. And I think it's upending the whole productivity equation, and that I think gives us the capacity to think different and to lead different through these times which is really exciting.
I love that. Kai.
Yeah. Happy to go last, and hook on to what Kate is saying. I think our first chapter is important because what we're talking about is a new relationship between employees and employers. And that is crucial and that is what has changed really when we look at the past 200 years. We're in a new age which we call the people age. Now we're not promoting, as Ilya said, to some extent of course, we're taking the employee's side, the contributor's side as we say, but it takes more than that.
And for that reason the trust and accountability chapter is probably my favorite, because it brings across the two things that need to go together. We've been given trust a lot, especially in the pandemic. When we talk about working virtual, we needed to give trust, and that is the new mantra of the new world of work, of the people age, it's trust and accountability. And to a certain extent, we've been given trust, now's the time to bring back accountability, and that is if you want the employer's side.
We're giving a lot to people and sustainable people management is about making people thrive and feel good at work, but we also need their contribution, we also need to make all of that work, we need performance, and we need accountability. And in that respect I think we have some great examples and ideas about how to foster that kind of accountability to make the entire thing work.
That's fantastic. Reflecting back on so many key messages that each of you has shared from thinking differently, to people age, trust, accountability, our attitudes toward work, the importance of culture. I'm certainly excited for everyone in this audience to have the opportunity to pick up this book and read it. I'm excited to take a look at it again. For those of you who've joined us a little late, the book that is soon to launch later this week is called Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age.
And Kate Bravery, Ilya Bonic, and Kai Anderson, are all authors of that book. So as I mentioned at the start, if you're not already following Kate, Kai, and Ilya, highly recommend that each of you follow them on LinkedIn. This is an opportunity to continue that conversation after today's dialogue.
And if you have any other questions, please put them in the comments, we will do our very best to make sure that each of them receives your questions and that we're able to respond back to you to connect with you and continue the conversation.
Also wanted to just encourage everyone to follow Mercer, if you're not already, as we continue this conversation, share future events, and thought leadership, in order to support you on your journeys. This is an exciting time in the world of work and there's a lot of possibilities, and a lot of opportunities, for all of us.
Thank you so much, Kate, Kai, and Ilya, for joining us today. It's been an absolute pleasure. I'm leaving feeling very inspired, and I hope that all of you in the audience are also sharing in that.
Thank you, Daniela. It was great to join you today.
Thank you, Daniela.
Thanks.
This is, thank you so much for tuning in today. I hope enjoyed this special edition. If you are celebrating over this holiday season, I hope you have a wonderful time with friends and family, and I look forward to reconnecting with you all in the new year. Have a great rest of day. Bye-bye.
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