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Welcome to the New Shape of Work podcast. I'm Kate Bravery, and today I'm joined by two Mercer experts to talk about how we can effectively engage our talent in the current economic climate. Welcome Lewis Garrad, Singapore business leader and noted author on workforce engagement. Great to have you join, Lewis. And Robyn Bachochin, partner in the career business, based out of Chicago and focused on the employee experience, communication, and change. Robyn, thanks for joining today.
You know, I was thinking, before we got on the call today, that I wonder how this period in time is going to be defined. And I do worry that it's going to be some of those headlines we've had over the last couple of years-- Great Resignation, Great Reassessment, Great Resentment, Great Reckoning, maybe the Great Regret. And I'm not sure that's a fair assessment of what we've been through, but I think it does say that the concept of engagement is really critical. And somehow maybe we got some of it wrong. And I think it speaks to this incredible period of introspection that we've just had and people really rethinking their relationship with work.
This morning, I opened the papers. And I heard, in one article, "rage applying," "quiet quitting," and "loud layoffs," which to me just shows that we're not out of the woods yet in some of these headlines. But seriously, what I thought we could hone in today is, what is the great reality around engagement levels? What's really driving people to maybe step back from full engagement in their work? Should we be demanding full engagement, or do we need to adjust our expectations? And if it's not engagement, what is it? Is it fully thriving? And if so, how do we get our people back into the workplace feeling thriving and energized?
So that's what I wanted to cover off today. And I do think this conversation has taken a certain hue given the cost-of-living crisis that is raging around the world. I've certainly heard, from a number of executives, some of their concerns about the challenge of, if we can't meet expectations around inflation-matched salaries, what is that going to do to engagement levels?
I also believe this picture is probably very across the world. So I'm glad that I've got two experts that cover many different jurisdictions. And Lewis, maybe I can start with you. Since you write on engagement, are some of these fears unfounded? And what are you seeing playing out differently in 2023?
Yeah, thanks, Kate. And it's great to be here. So to answer the specific question that you asked, no, I do not feel these fears are unfounded, just to be super clear. I think we are seeing many people, exactly as you said, forming a different relationship with their work, and therefore, with their employer. And that shift is causing organizations and HR functions and leaders to find that perhaps strategies and tactics that they've used in the past are less effective than they would like.
Mm-hmm, yes. And I think that's been particularly prominent in areas where labor markets have become very tight. So particularly you can think of labor markets or skills markets, I think, is really where we're headed, and particularly where you've got very developed economies, the workforce has shrunk due to retirement, they're having less babies.
And so you're finding that we're generating more work than the number of people we have. It really puts the employee in the driver's seat in terms of the demands that they can put on their employers for what they're looking for. Even though we're going through a period of fairly significant economic uncertainty with labor markets still being very tight, I think the vast majority of people feel that they, as an employee, are in a good position.
Now, I also think it's very interesting to see that employees, yes, they're changing their relationship with work, which means they're looking for something different they've been working at home for a long time. They've now found, in many places, that that's the norm. They've come to expect that. But also they're finding it easier to get access to opportunities. The cost of switching is reduced. They now no longer need to think about, do I need to go to a particular location? They can work more remotely or in a more hybrid fashion in many cases. And that means it's far easier to get out. There are lots of opportunities, but also than to switch roles. And I think we continue to see evidence of that, particularly in developed economies.
I also think that, just to round this off, Kate-- and then I would love to get your reaction to that-- that people are now really experiencing the vast majority of their work through the work that they're actually asked to do you. Because they are not so often surrounded by the social environment of their organization, going to an office and feeling those kind of informal connections, they're not doing that as often-- it's not that they're not doing it at all, they're just doing it, often, in a more structured way-- it really kind of hits home that this is what I do. And do I really like this? And I was saying to someone the other day that politics, irritating bureaucracy, ineffective HR processes, feel viscerally more frustrating and irritating when you're at your desk at home, which people are more often in many places. So I think it's raising the bar on what organizations need to deliver.
Well, you've teed up on lots of topics there that I'm hoping to unpack throughout this call. You mentioned less effective tactics. I would love to hear what you think are effective ones before we close out today. But I think it's interesting what you said around labor trends and these increasing demands. Because we've just finished an executive outlook study, 400 CFOs and CEOs. And it was interesting, because they said, even if we face a serious economic downturn, we expect demand to increase. But only 33% said we have the talent to scale up and scale down. So I think that is an absolute crunch. And how you handle it, I imagine, weighs on this.
But you mentioned earlier that there's a labor shortage or skills shortage. And labor shortage speaks to that crunch. But if it's a skills shortage, you need a heavy dose of motivation for people to learn those new skills whilst they're doing their current job. So that has an interesting element-- fascinating.
We ended up there just talking about how that experience has changed. And Robyn, maybe I can bring you in, one because the employee experience is your area of expertise, but two because you're sitting in the US and Canada, where a lot of those headlines actually came from.
Right. Yeah, I mean, I think it's really interesting, Lewis's last comment about how important the work has become because some of the other things that really shape the experience are less prominent in the employment relationship. And it makes me think about a client that I'm working with right now where they've asked us to help them take a step back and assess their employee value proposition and sort of reshape that and re-articulate it given where we are today.
And as we've been having conversations with their employees and we're trying to tease out what's really different and differentiated about that experience, one of the things that their employees are telling us is that the work is really interesting. And I think that's good news for that particular employer.
And Lewis's comment just sort of reminds me that that's something that we really need to sort of lean into as far as that employer's EVP. Because I don't think that every organization can say that. And I think that that has become increasingly important. And it's good to hear that organization, their employees expressing that that's present for them. And that is a good sign for them from a retention perspective.
So I think that comment is spot on. I would also say I feel like, more and more, the conversations that we're having, particularly in the industries of health care, hospitality, retail, is around burnout and just the nature of work. And to be frank, a lot of employees are telling us that their jobs are awful, that they're just feeling really challenged, really high levels of stress and burnout and frustration on a daily basis. And so starting to see some employers in those spaces really look at work design and how work is getting done.
So it's not-- Kate, you started the conversation about rewards and keeping pace with inflation. And that's important. But I think sort of the counter to that is that employees are just really unhappy or dissatisfied with the work and the nature of the jobs and how that's making them feel.
I mean, that really resonates. I think what Lewis was saying is, well, maybe we've had more of an opportunity to think about the work. Because those other parts of the work environment-- your commute, your social-- have rescinded.
The burnout one you brought, though, is quite interesting. As both of you well know, on global talent trends last year, burnout jumped from 67% globally to 81% [INAUDIBLE] at risk of burnout. But it's been interesting in the last year to watch how companies have responded. So flexible working, four-day workweeks, remote, is some of the dialogue.
And Lewis, I know you have an opinion on that approach. Wonder if you won't mind wading in here. Because they are related. But what people wanted on flexible working last year, what they want now, what they want next year, is a moving beast. And we're not seeing burnout levels rescind-- or certainly feelings of exhaustion are not.
Sure. I agree. So yeah, the four-day workweek topic, I think, is fascinating. The first question that I'm struggling to really get insight about is, what is the business problem we're solving? So what is the underlying business issue that is creating the need for a shorter workweek.
And I think, if we look back and see how our current work patterns developed, we can see that the existing weekend was developed because there were some rituals already built into social life, mostly religious rituals, which caused at least one day a week to be sacred, and therefore, in many-- particularly industrializing-- economies to be one without work. And what was happening is that people, then, they either participated in a religion or they went out and had a good time, and then, on the Monday, they weren't as bright and sprightly as the management would have liked.
So they said, well, why don't we just give you two days off. You can have one day for doing whatever you want to do, go out and have fun with your friends; one day to practice whatever you want to practice. And then please be back at work on Monday and be focused. And that was part of the reason that Ford and others introduced a two-day weekend. And then, actually, the US government adopted it more widely as a way to get more people back to work during the Great Depression.
So the good news is that companies drove this change. Governments didn't do it, companies did it. And the governments co-opted it and borrowed it to solve a social problem, which is what they needed to get companies to employ a greater number of people. So they enforced a workweek so that organizations would have to adopt a larger workforce, basically. And then it became normal.
And I think, if I really push myself to look at what I think organizations are trying to solve with this, the burnout is the outcome of a lack of productivity within the workforce. People are not getting as much done in the amount of time that they spend working as people would like. And the paradoxical kind of situation that's occurring is they therefore, partly because we have so much knowledge work that requires more thinking, frankly, from a large volume of the workforce, and focus time, everything that you get from work is almost the opposite of what will help you focus-- the opposite.
Like I don't know about you, but I'm paid to do a reasonable amount of thinking, and I have to do all of it when I'm not in a meeting, writing an email, getting 10 messages on Teams or wherever I get them from, et cetera. And I am a relatively normal person, I think, in terms of my work experience.
And if I explain this story to people who are in white collar jobs, almost all of them will say, that's exactly me. So what's happening is, if you give people some more time off, you basically give them more time off to ruminate on stuff between a Thursday and a Monday, and far less distraction. And I think that's quite an interesting change of pattern if we think about what we're actually being asked to do-- to deliver value and to deliver productivity.
So one of the reasons I think we're not seeing much change in outcome in terms of output when we introduce a four-day workweek is because, actually, a lot of what people need is more space to actually process what's going on. And if you just give them five days a week to work, what they do is they fill that week with interactions, most of which get in the way of actually being productive, which leads to burnout. They're doing a bunch of stuff that probably doesn't matter.
So I think we should have that raise of focus on the business problem that we're trying to solve and how it then impacts businesses and people so that we can really start to answer the business question. And the last thing I'd say, Kate, is that it's important to recognize that this is, for some kinds of work, a disconnection between time spent actually doing the work and output. So the investment of time is no longer as directly correlated to the quality of output as it was before for some kinds of work, but definitely not others.
So I think it's a very interesting time to be seeing--
It is.
--this kind of change.
And we've just finished the largest four day workweek study here in the UK. The results were read earlier this week. And many of the things that you were saying on the call really resonated. I also had the chance to talk to a number of people at Digital Frontiers who went to a three-day weekend, as they call it. And one of the things that they found was just being clearer on a Monday because they haven't had to cram the whole weekend with child duties and other activities so they get to Monday and they're tired. Now they're getting to Monday and they say they're actually more refreshed and feel that they can tackle their problems in a different way.
The other thing that they said is, particularly many of the senior people, they felt, my gosh, I'm never going to be able to do my five days' work in four days. And that forced them, I think, to address what's sometimes at the heart of these issues-- how do I work? Where do I spend my time? What is value-adding and what's not value-adding.
And we all know it intuitively. We don't always do the hard time on it. You mentioned rituals, which I think is really interesting. And I think that's been a topic that's not getting enough attention as we've all gone to remote and hybrid working. So I would love to come back to that.
But Robyn, I'd love to hear, what innovations are you hearing from clients on this topic of flexible working and how that's reshaping the employee experience?
Yeah, so I think it's still feels like it's a bit of an experiment. I mean, from where I sit, I feel like organizations are still kind of seeing how it's going. And one of the things I would say is the organizations where it seems to be going better are those that have focused attention on managers and the manager's role in making hybrid work-- so investing in training, upskilling, being really clear about norms and expectations in a hybrid work setting, and creating-- I have one client too that's even creating community for managers to connect with one another, share their learnings and experiences, and sort of adopt best practices.
So I think those organizations seem to be having more success with hybrid work. I think, too, a lot of conversations lately, with organizations that have mixed workforces-- so certainly hybrid is easy to implement with professional workers, but employers are still trying to think through, what does flexibility look like? How do we extend that to our hourly workforce?
So I know of one organization that was really looking at changing the dynamics of their shifts. And rather than having three eight-hour shifts, looking at something like four six-hour shifts, and also looking for other ways to make those hourly jobs more attractive or to be more accommodating to hourly workers.
So for example, looking at near-site childcare options so that especially female hourly workers have that as an avenue to ensure that they're getting good childcare and that's not a barrier to their being able to work in those jobs.
So some creative solutions there. But I think it's still early days in terms of how these employers are thinking through what flexibility looks like for that hourly workforce.
Mm-hmm. It is great, though, the conversation is being extended to the hourly workforce as opposed to just being hijacked by digital workers. I know that, under the Good Work framework which launched earlier this year at Davos, pillar 2 is around flexible working. And the minimum requirement there is flexible working for all, for all populations.
A number of the people who are part of the alliance have set goals, but they've set them quite far out because it takes hard work. Unilever, for example, says, we will enable flexible work offers for all workers by 2030. Because looking at shift work and shared work takes a little bit of [INAUDIBLE].
It's interesting, though, because as we embrace flexible working, we do lose some of those traditional rituals that you were mentioning earlier, Lewis, around when we come to work, how we work together. I mentioned Digital Frontiers earlier. And they've had to bring back a contact day so that people formally do come together.
I wonder, Lewis, if you have any comments or thoughts around the role that ritual plays in the workplace and the importance in the employee experience.
Yeah. So I will start with a book recommendation.
OK.
It's important. And it's a book on time management called Four Thousand Weeks by a gentleman, his name is Oliver Burkeman. He's a Guardian columnist. He lives in Brooklyn. And the book is called Four Thousand Weeks because 4,000 weeks is the average human lifespan, which is quite sobering.
Gosh.
And it makes you think one week becomes incredibly valuable when you put it in that context. And the reason I raise this is because, in that book, he talks about being in synchrony with others as one of the most satisfying and fulfilling ways to use your time. And he uses, actually, this study of Swedish holidaymakers-- so people going on holiday in Sweden-- who are happiest-- it turns out Sweden is happiest as a country when people are mostly on vacation at the same times of year rather than when they're out of sync. And it's because they have opportunities to sync up with each other.
And he talks about the fact that, while we are so desperate to have control, flexibility, and freedom almost-- flexibility, freedom, autonomy, I have power over my time, and so I am happier because I'm in control-- we give up the opportunity to be in sync with others. Because you have to give up that control to figure out how you can be with another person to do a certain thing to have a shared experience. And he talks about how, while we think we're taking control and making time for ourselves, actually we're losing a really important dimension of our lives.
So actually, the book is beautiful. It's a really wonderfully written book. But I think he hits a really meaningful point which people forget, which is that, actually, what a ritual is often a practice or process and a shared experience with others that you go through that causes you to feel bonded to a group or to feel part of a community.
And there, I think, shows you the underlying power. All cultures that are strong have rituals that generate these kinds of shared experiences. And I think that that's very important. Because one of the things that digital technologies do is they dissolve the boundaries, they remove the guardrails, they purposefully eliminate the synchronous rituals that were helping us form very strong bonds with others. And I think that is something we really need to think carefully about.
As I said earlier, the technologies are built to capture your attention, not to help you be more productive-- not. And that is very important. And in the same way, they're built to make it more frictionless or more convenient for you to do something when perhaps making the effort would have caused that experience to be more meaningful and engaging for you. So they're not interested in your purpose and belonging. And digital working, I feel, has now driven a wedge here.
And that's why, when we talk about ineffective versus effective strategies, one of the things I think organizations are trying to do is they're trying to add back in that dimension. And it seems that forcing people to go back to the office is very difficult. So you need to figure out other ways in which to create these shared experiences, these rituals, that people will then start to feel really in sync. And it could to be physically present with each other. You don't probably need to do it as often as you thought you did, but it needs to be there, it needs to be consistent, and you need to understand the underlying psychological purpose in order to be able to do it effectively. If you're just doing it in a very superficial way, I think, perhaps, you're not really touching the key cultural drivers that you want to hit. So I agree--
If the psychological purpose is to come together, it doesn't necessarily need to be at head office quarters, as well. So I think that also opens up discussions around the third space.
I love the conversation about efficiency versus happiness. I think, in the last few years, we've definitely overindexed on the efficiency piece. And we've got wonderful tools to do that. But it's not until we stop that we start to think about what's really helping with happiness. It makes me think about there are a lot of companies that, when they started to respond to this period of fatigue, offer people their birthday off. And then there were other companies that offered company days off. And again, not scientific here, but the people that offer company days off, I think, fare better. Because the feedback I heard was, I don't mind taking the same day off as everybody else. It feels like Christmas because we're all off at the same time.
And so I do think that the work doesn't stop when you take extra days out. And Robyn, the US is notorious for not taking its holiday days. I would like to bring you into the discussion.
And one last thing I want to pop for both of you is, Oliver Wyman, our sister company, just did a great study on Generation Z. And there's lots that are different about that generation, but one thing that stood in my mind is they said, you only live once. And they're not prepared to kind of sacrifice today for tomorrow. So they want those shared experiences, that sense of belonging, and maybe some of those rituals to come back together. Robyn, I would love to hear your thoughts.
Yeah, it was so funny. I was literally at a client yesterday, and we were talking about time off. And the client was sharing her experience of going out and meeting with groups of employees and managers. And she was commenting that the kind of mid-career or older workers were saying they don't need or want more PTO. They feel like they have enough. And if anything, they're not taking full advantage of it, versus visiting sites where there were newer entrants to the workforce. And those employees were saying that they want and need more PTO.
So I think your comments, Kate-- I literally just heard that directly from a client yesterday.
Well, you know, I think we've already had a pretty lively conversation on this. The employee experience from this year's global talent trends is the number-one area that companies want to get right. And when we kind of dived into that a bit more, it was because they really want to retain the diverse populations in their companies today. If you were to offer some key recommendations for people listening in today of what you absolutely cannot pass go without doing this year, what would be some of your thoughts?
Maybe, Lewis, I can come to you-- two or three key recommendations for helping them to make progress on the new [INAUDIBLE] we're seeing.
Yeah, OK. So first and foremost, I think companies need to an organization generally need to be very thoughtful about internal mobility, which is kind of an old-fashioned thing, I think, but now is making a comeback. Hiring is difficult. And I think people are increasingly looking for diverse experiences. And I think there are technologies that are enabling organizations to make better use of the energy and enthusiasm that their workforce has for diverse internal experiences across lots of different types of jobs.
So that's one area where I see a lot of focus, energy, and effort around career experiences as a way to bring the employee experience alive rather than it's easier to apply for an external job than to find another one here. And that goes back to some of the skills-based talent practices that we mentioned earlier-- cannot overlook it. So that's one.
And two, as Robyn had mentioned earlier, I think that the design of work has become interesting. And I find organizations that have little patience for low-value-add activities and who ask themselves, well, can I bot that, basically in order to release this human being from the pain of doing something that is boring or menial. You know what I mean? And so to then find something more interesting and creative to do-- I think organizations that do that tend to improve their employee experience in a more ongoing and dramatic fashion.
And then, last-- and this could perhaps be the most important-- is that organizations that overindex on really effective management, people management-- and I don't mean super-inspiring leaders who are-- all this [INAUDIBLE] starfish and all that [INAUDIBLE] stuff, I'm not saying that's not important. But just really going for the day-to-day blocking and tackling of excellent people management, somebody in charge who cares about you, who invests in your future, who wants you to thrive and do well, who is looking out for you who you trust deeply, that, I think, has become something that the pandemic has underscored as vital. And organizations that particularly are really focused on putting the right people in those positions and then asking them to play that role, I think, has really become something that drives the employee experience.
And my concern-- just to add it before Robyn chimes in-- is that we have found that many people who are in caregiving roles outside of work who are actually very effective in managerial positions-- because you're talking about women or people who have many other things going on in their life where they have to care for others, who are therefore well trained to be in management positions, are tapping out because management jobs have become so tough.
Gosh, that's fascinating.
You have to be the super expert, and keep your boss happy, and do all these things for your people, be super empathetic. And it's like, just be everything to everyone. And by the way, there's a mediocre paycheck to go. And I think that's very, very tough.
So I think that last one is worth spending more time.
Yeah, I totally agree.
I love your thought that the people who might bring some of those caring skills are the ones that are being disincentivized to participate in the workforce.
It's amazing. Yeah, and you know, work of the future-- caring for other people, be it in management or other kind of roles, is the work of the future. Because everything else, the machine does better. No one cares for another person like a person does.
You and I look at a lot of data. And I think we've seen, year over year, when we look at thriving employees compared to less thriving, what comes up time and time-- my manager has my back, I can say no to unreasonable requests, I can bring my authentic self to work, my manager knows what my career aspirations are. I mean, that balance of empathy as well as getting a [? jump ?] job, I just think continues to be important.
I love your comment there about, can I bot it? I don't know about you-- at the moment, I think, can I ChatGPT it?
Exactly. [INAUDIBLE].
But I think the point there about constantly thinking about, is there a better way to do this job, and can we alleviate some pressure so the job becomes more enjoyable for our people [INAUDIBLE].
Robyn, what are you seeing on that front with regard to making jobs more engaging and being able to retain more of our workforce?
Yeah, actually, if you don't mind, Kate, I did want to sort of add upon Lewis's last comments. And the one thing that I would add to the conversation is around employee involvement and employee sensing, like making sure that you are having employees be part of the solution. So I feel like employers are finally really getting it that they need to be engaging with the workforce to understand more deeply their needs, priorities, and aspirations, and also to use employee input to shape real solutions.
I mean, even something as simple as I've got a client that is in a really tough cost environment right now and they're having to look at taking some actions within their benefits program, and rather than just looking at that purely from a cost perspective, engaging with employees, doing some research, doing our unmet needs study to understand what their top concerns are so that they're being more thoughtful and strategic about what actions they're taking and that they're allowing employees in to be part of the solution.
So I think-- and it does sort of relate back, Kate, to your question about, what can employers do to make jobs better, to make work better? I think employers need to be listening to the workforce and understanding where those pain points are and how to best address them.
And I'm thinking about an employer that we're working with in the retail sector where they're trying to reimagine that retail experience not only for their customer but for the employees who work in those retail stores. And the process started with going out and really sitting down and spending time with those employees and understanding what a day in the life is like and what are the things that really energize them and make it possible for them to serve customers in the best possible way and what are those things that are getting in the way so that can help then start to feed into what they do from a work design perspective going forward. So I think a continued push on engaging employees and helping employees sort of co-create and be part of the solution will be really important this year in light of everything that we talked about.
All right.
I think that's very well said.
Yeah. We are absolutely coming to time. And you've just done a fantastic summary of some of the key points.
I would like to just ask one last question of you, which is, if we zoom five or six years into the future, what do you think will be the hot topics when we talk about the engagement of our workforce? We will be way past the pandemic. We will be embracing these new ways of working. And I'm curious to hear your response about what do you think will be the hot topics they've got to get right then?
And while you're thinking on that, I'll just wrap up some of the points that I picked out from today. We started by talking about the four-day workweek is not a blunt instrument for dealing with burnout. What we do need to do is really look at the work, and the work design, and also the work habits we have formed over the last few years.
We've got to think about the psychological purpose for being together. That might be in a workplace. It might be elsewhere.
And maybe we need to rethink about the rituals that people experience to give that sense of being part of something and maybe reshape those moments of matter so they're not just work related but they're human related.
And we need to think about that career experience. I think, Lewis, you were saying there that people want to feel that they're progressing-- not necessarily being promoted, but having diverse experiences. And if we can start to think inevitably about where we can bot it and ChatGPT it, we might be seeing the keys to new ways of doing our work and also working together, which I think is really interesting.
All right, why don't we close out with just comments. Robyn, how about you go first what do you think we'll be talking about in the future about engagement?
I just-- I wonder a little bit about what, as employees progress in their careers, whether they will-- I think we're seeing employees are moving more fluidly from opportunity to opportunity, employer to employer. And I do just wonder, I think a lot about gig work and just having sort of short stints. And I feel like that's going to be part of the conversation.
And as I even think about my own career and my own future, thinking about shorter-term experiences and opportunities and moving from one to the other, maybe, in a more fluid way. And so I sometimes think about what that will look like and if we'll be having a completely different conversation about the makeup of the workforce and how employees are moving around to different experiences, not even within the same company but from company to company, things like that.
Yeah, absolutely. Exciting world-- portfolio careers, moving from company to company.
Yeah.
[INAUDIBLE] I think those shorter ones where we can earn and learn in the flow sound exciting. I buy into your vision of the future. That gets me excited. Lewis, what about, from your perspective, what do you think the debate will be centering on in five years from now?
In five years' time-- well, so, just to say, to build on Robyn's point, I think, if we continue down that path of more fluid careers, what will be interesting to see is how people would lose the connection with their work identity. So what I mean by that is that many people form their identity as the part of what they do. My job is this. I am one of these. And you then connect that identity to your organization's purpose.
And if you are moving around many types of different work, you lose your connection with "I am one of these." Or it might be "I have these kinds of capabilities."
And so that means that the organization as a platform, as a community, as a place through which to find ways to deliver value, but also then feel a sense of belonging. With EVP, the culture will be a much more important component for organizations to think about. Because right now, we all just talked about that, well, this is all about the design of work, and how people connect to it, and all this kind of stuff. I think that is the topic now.
But let's say you're doing five or six projects a year, you're rotating around, your skill sets are being used for lots of different types of work. I think that means that the organization's deal with you has to be much stronger. And I think about this not just in terms of psychological connection, how to identify with my relationship, but it's part of the purpose of the organization as a whole, but also even the tangible things. And I think you'll see like companies like Unilever trying to do that now, where they will provide, like, a wrapper, like a benefits and a wrapper around a gig deal, where you're paid for what you do, but at least you have some support, some consistency, so you know you're getting that as part of the deal as well. And so it's on multiple levels where I think that will be a really meaningful and interesting topic.
The last thing, then-- so I think that builds on what Robyn said, because I think that's really important and I think we'll still be talking about that in five years.
Just to [INAUDIBLE] something in addition is that demographics are moving as quickly towards older workforces. Youth will become rare-- or rarer. And so throwing money at an inexperienced young person to bring them into the workforce, that's usually where the cheap-- the more cost-effective, hardworking labor is. Because coming in it's youth, it's excited, that will become less and less of the workforce in developed economies. So I think we'll be asking ourselves, what does it mean to have a motivated, engaged, innovative, 40-plus person? Right?
And I think that we kind of know that, but we're not really taking it seriously. And I think we still obsess over youth as the way to fill in for the fact that we're undervaluing older people, and at every level. Unless-- if you're not old and senior, then you're not doing something right. And that's wrong. We cannot have-- that opinion or that idea as an enduring idea is wrong. So we need to address that.
I think, in five years, that'll be hitting us in the face.
So interesting-- at Davos, there was a panel with a group of speakers from the US. And the question was asked, is complaints about flexible working the biggest complaint you're getting to unions at the moment? And actually what came back, no, it's age discrimination.
And they actually look at workers over 45 being discriminated and said, that's the biggest issue that we need to tackle of our time. So I think--
Happening already. So maybe--
But I like your comment there about the UX program at Unilever. I think that is a standout, and we will probably see more of them. Shorter memorable experiences I think all sound good. And absolutely we've got to appreciate the longer lives that we will have, the need to fund those pension pots for longer and make sure that we are reinvesting.
And in fact, there is actually a number of companies, as part of the World Economic Forum Good Work, that have pledged to direct their reskilling investment to their tenured people, which I think absolutely is part of where we see the future of work heading.
We probably need to wrap there just for time, but it's been absolutely fascinating having you both on today. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, your thoughts, and your experiences from the different markets that you operate in.
Listeners, if you want to hear more of discussions like this or hear other topics related to the new shape of work, please do visit Mercer.com. Thank you so much for tuning in today. And everybody, have a great day.